E-prime challenge

[Karen]

How can we bring out the other forum members?

I too am asking the same question....Forum members, if you are reading this message, know that I would enjoy hearing from you because your contributions make a difference to my learning.

[Marcio_Osorio]

Originally Posted by Karen

[...] would you like to move into writing work related memos in e-prime? I have many clients who have standardized their office memos with e-prime. I will give you a formula for memo writing if you express an interest to further your learnings in e-prime.

Karen, yes, I'd very much like to have that formula. As a civil servant, rather an ofício- or "officialese"-writing bureaucrat working for a government-owned public hospital, I have had to type "ofícios" (official letters and memos) riddled with passive voice constructions indiscriminately using many forms of the verb to be for nearly 13 years in a row. My boss will not let me rewrite the officialese using the active voice.

BTW I do not use English in ofícios.

[Karen]

Marcio, I hope my formula helps you in the language you write your memos. Begin with the Date + Subject + Verb + what, where, why, how, when,

Example: On January 6th, (date)Karen (subject or Proper noun) revealed (verb) her e-prime formula. (what)
I have found in the majority of cases, when you give ownership at the beginning of a sentence followed by a verb, you will not have the problem of passive tenses. Because of your profession, I would strongly suggest that you always use a date before the subject. Let me know if this formula works for you. Karen

[Karen]

Hi Marcio, Ok, Saturday I will conduct another Business Writing course for Philip Morris International with the focus on E-Prime and standardizing memos. I will take some of these memos and put them on this site so you can try your hand at them. If you have memos that need standardizing, why don't you send them across and both of us can work on them. K

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[Weetabix]

I have email notification turned on, but somehow it didn't notify me until the apparent spam post just above. Hmmm...

I'll have a go at Karen's list:

1. Did you enjoy the discussion in the meeting? Did the discussion satisfy you?

2. Have I received any important call/message ?

3. Did you enjoy your weekend?

4. I can’t find my medicine?

5.

6. What held you up?

7.

8. Why do you ask sp many questions?

9. Have the police locked up my children?

10. I have arranged a meeting with the president.

11. The Colts lost and the salty drops fall like rain from his clouded brow.

12. Karen teaches well. Karen’s teaching speaks to me.

13. Sir, lets have a cup of tea I feel sleepy.

14. Here I come.

15. Why do the firemen cluster around that cat so?

16. Tempus fugit.

17. What do you plan to do this evening?

18.?

19. We enjoy this immensely.

20. We will attend together.

21. Did you do well in the market today?
22. Do you think we’ll receive any big deposits today?

23. How did your meeting go?

24. You look great. The new mullet nicely frames your piercings.

25. Will you attend tomorrow?

26. Did your paper say what you intended?

27. Do you have insomnia?

28. Turn off the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and watch Good Eats!

29. Why do you act so agitated?

[Weetabix]

Originally Posted by Marcio_Osorio

Karen, yes, I'd very much like to have that formula. As a civil servant, rather an ofício- or "officialese"-writing bureaucrat working for a government-owned public hospital, I have had to type "ofícios" (official letters and memos) riddled with passive voice constructions indiscriminately using many forms of the verb to be for nearly 13 years in a row. My boss will not let me rewrite the officialese using the active voice.

BTW I do not use English in ofícios.

Karen, I'd enjoy looking at your memos, too, if you wouldn't think that too forward of me.

Marcio - I practice engineering for a living. I've almost given up eliminating the passive in official communications. Sometimes you need to emphasise the action rather than the actor, and passive voice does that in a way that people feel comfortable with. Your boss may also fear liability - when a sentence clearly identifies the actor, you know whom to blame.

[Marcio_Osorio]

@ Karen - Thank you for your formula which I saved into a .doc file. I really like the direct approach as per your formula. (Just edited this comment in. Somehow I had to say I like your formula.)
@ Weetabix - Yes, the overwhelming majority of bosses, those managing government-owned or -sponsored institutions especially, have so conveniently hidden behind passive voice constructs forever averting any compromising issue that might arise from first-person writing. Rather than write, "I have today instructed X to redraw the contract pending a signature," most will probably resort to something like "X has today been instructed to_______." On any other assumption at least.

[Karen]

I have enjoyed reading the above responses from Marcio and Weetabix. As this has become a learning platform, I would like to take this opportunity to also correct common language errors in writing. Weetabix, I have looked over the sentences you wrote in e-prime and you have made an excellent attempt at replacing standard English for e-prime. However having said that, please allow me to give you some grammar rules in English. #6 What held you up, ends in a preposition. Never end a sentence in a preposition. You can revise this sentence by saying, Why did you get delayed? In sentence #11, if you start a sentence in the past tense, do not change tenses in the middle of the sentence. You statement would correctly read, The Colts lost and the salty drops fell like rain from his clouded brow. #15 you have written an incomplete sentence, so_____________? #16, I don't understand and #25, the sentence would read better if you put the date at the beginning. Hope these grammar tips help you in your future writings.

[Weetabix]

Originally Posted by Karen

Weetabix, I have looked over the sentences you wrote in e-prime and you have made an excellent attempt at replacing standard English for e-prime. However having said that, please allow me to give you some grammar rules in English. #6 What held you up, ends in a preposition. Never end a sentence in a preposition. You can revise this sentence by saying, Why did you get delayed?

I have to admit I know the grammatical rules you've alluded to. I choose to break some of them. I figure that English, deriving grammatically from German, can use some of their conventions, and one can correctly end a sentence with a preposition in German (Wo gehen Sie hin?) I kind of side with Poe in the opinion that since many of the English grammars derived from Latin that some of the long-held rules don't really apply because our word structure differs from theirs.

Can't split infinitives? Surely, you can't in Latin where one word contains their infinitive, but I like (with Captain Kirk) to boldly go where no man has gone before. I generally try to avoid it because it often sounds clumsy, but I don't always. Sometimes you can achieve greater clarity of communication with a split infinitive than without.

Also, "Why did you get delayed?" implies getting delayed by something, so I'd have an understood passive voice there. I think I'd prefer, "What delayed you?"

As to punctuation rules : always separate independent clauses joined with a conjunction by a comma. In your first sentence in the quote above, you should have a comma after "e-prime."

In sentence #11, if you start a sentence in the past tense, do not change tenses in the middle of the sentence. You statement would correctly read, The Colts lost and the salty drops fell like rain from his clouded brow.

I, too, applaud and encourage parallel construction. I intended to type it as you corrected it. Sorry for the typo.

#15 you have written an incomplete sentence, so_____________?

"Why do the firemen cluster around that cat so?" By the "so" I meant it in the sense of "in the condition or manner expressed or indicated" rather than in the sense of "because of the reason given" so nothing followed.

#16, I don't understand

Latin for "Time flies!" I amused myself with that translation of the original, "I am getting late," though I apparently didn't amuse you. I'll try to do better in future.

#25, the sentence would read better if you put the date at the beginning.

"Tomorrow will you attend?" sounds more clumsy to me. If I read your formula correctly "Date + Subject + Verb + what, where, why, how, when," my tomorrow expressed the ultimate when rather than the date of the action.

I'd think, by your formula, if I meant to insert the date of the specific action of the sentence and to recast the question itself, my sentence would read:

"Today, I ask you: you will attend tomorrow?"

I believe your formula applies more correctly to indicative sentences than to interrogatives.

[Karen]

I still think #25 reads better when you ask, Tomorrow will you attend.... Had you added the what after the attend, it would have given more clarity to the sentence. As for German, I doubt most people have the information you have about the German language. I applaud you for knowing so much about other languages in different cultures, but that does not make their language grammatically correct in the culture you choose to live. By ending your sentence in 'so', I had many thoughts run through my mind, of which none came close to your reasoning. Another reason to use e-prime! What would prevent you from speaking in e-prime? Would it not appeal to your sense of accuracy?

[Weetabix]

Originally Posted by Karen

What would prevent you from speaking in e-prime? Would it not appeal to your sense of accuracy?

I think you lost me there. I don't think I understand your question. I actually do try to speak in e-prime though I don't emphasize that to the person with whom I'm talking. I try to use it because it does appeal to my sense of accuracy.

Do we have different definitions? I consider e-prime as English with no "to be" verbs used. Do you have additional criteria?

[Karen]

Yes, you have posted your entire argument to me in e-prime. I did not question your e-prime though, I questioned the responses you gave.

[Marcio_Osorio]

Originally Posted by Weetabix

[...] I actually do try to speak in e-prime though I don't emphasize that to the person with whom I'm talking.

On the E-Prime of it. Weetabix, would "... I don't emphasize that to my listener(s)/interlocutor(s)" acceptably translate the last part of your statement?

"Ever since you've been leaving me/I've been wanting to cry" --Too Late For Good-Byes, by Julian Lennon.

[Karen]

Does the 'you've been leaving me' imply that a person has tried to break off the relationship but failed? And, does the 'I've been wanting to cry' imply that the other person has the urge to cry but not enough to produce tears? Does this total statement imply that until something better comes along , (the crier) will finally have built up enough urges to cry which will allow a trickle of a tear to appear on his face.....lol (my early morning humor, I just never did get lyrics to songs......)

I've been trying hard to get going but the goings been getting the better of me.

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[Marcio_Osorio]

Originally Posted by Karen

Does the 'you've been leaving me' imply that a person has tried to break off the relationship but failed? And, does the 'I've been wanting to cry' imply that the other person has the urge to cry but not enough to produce tears? Does this total statement imply that until something better comes along , (the crier) will finally have built up enough urges to cry which will allow a trickle of a tear to appear on his face.....lol (my early morning humor, I just never did get lyrics to songs......)

Yes, the singer might have thought so on all counts. You gave a good account of it.

I've been trying hard to get going but the goings been getting the better of me.

I have endeavored to get going but the goings kept getting the better of me.

This is yet another violent urban center as are all other major urban centers in Brazil.

[Karen]

In the cities of Brazil communities have enabled another violent urban center to develop with no differentiation between them and the other major urban centers.

Can you be certain there are no lurkers where there are idlers?

[Weetabix]

Originally Posted by Karen

Can you be certain there are no lurkers where there are idlers?

Since we know we have idlers, how can you know we have no lurkers?

To do is to be - Socrates
To be is to do - Jean-Paul Sartre
Do-be-do-be-do - Frank Sinatra

(Someone had to do it!)

[Karen]

My shoulders shake from laughter......lol, very funny. do be do be do.......I like it.

You are one funny man who is from my generation.

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