Inkstersco

Alright, so, "the carpet is rough" becomes "the carpet feels rough". E-Prime does its job well.

But don't people say "the carpet seems rough" as short for "the carpet seems to be rough?" The shorter sentence has the same dodgy potential as the longer one.

~Inkstersco

Karen

Some words get better used than others. You have your pick of sooooooo many, why get caught up in one work..i.e.'seems'?

Inkstersco

Maybe adjectives overall, and not the verb "to be", has the flaw.

For example, "I am Scottish" has many meanings.
My birth happened in Scotland.
My house stands in Scotland.
I feel at home in Scotland.
My forebears came from Scotland.
I vote in Scotland.
The society of Scotland influenced my personality.
Etc.

However, "Scottish people look nice" has the precise same number of meanings.
People whose birth happened in Scotland look nice.
People whose house stands in Scotland look nice.
People who feel at home in Scotland look nice.
People whose forebears came from Scotland look nice.
People who vote in Scotland look nice.
People whose personality got influenced by the society of scotland look nice.

E-Prime does improve the language, but mainly, it seems to me, because it lessens the use of some kinds of adjectives. E-Prime improves the first sentence, but does there also exist a formulaic way to improve the second sentence?

~Iain

Karen

Good morning Iain. Ok, lets look at the 'nice'. When someone says, "Karen, I love the way you teach," I never take that statement as a compliment. Why? It tells me nothing. Now if one of my participants said, 'Karen, I love how you project your voice, or your explanations on how to write objectives came across as very clear to the whole audience, or I loved the humor you injected when you gave an example of action responses, then I would take that as a compliment. An e-prime statement does not just 'rid' itself of the 'to be' verbs, it gives clarity on the whole subject.
Going back to your 'nice'. Add to your statement so that others won't get confused as to what you specifically mean when you say 'nice'. This will automatically eliminate all the other sentences that others think. One of the biggest problems that I find with the Standard English language, people tend to use very vague words without clarifying them.

Inkstersco

I would take it as a compliment, but not as a helpful compliment.

I agree, but I don't understand how the abovewritten example shows a contrast between E-Prime, and Standard English. It just shows a contrast between a vague compliment and a more detailed compliment. In neither example do you use the form "to be".

I agree, and I exemplified this point by showing how "I am Scottish" is less clear than "My house stands in Scotland".

However, a person who wants to obfuscate can find a way to do so simply by using the word "Scottish", even without "to be". When one says "Scottish people all eat porridge", this still raises all the same questions as "I am Scottish" (see my two lists).

I can't do that because I didn't mean anything by it -- I just chose an adjective at random.

My point was that although the problematic "I am Scottish" translates into the un-problematic E-prime "My house stands in Scotland", we can also translate it into the problematic E-Prime "I have Scottishness".

In otherwords, a willful obfuscater can easily get around the restrictions put in place by E-Prime.

~Iain

Inkstersco

I think if everybody became magically incapable of using the verb "be", then instead of becoming clearer, the language would just gravitate toward sentences such as "I have Scottishness", which is no better than "I am Scottish".

~Iain

BobHurt

Why does one seem better than the other to you? be means "equals." Have means "possess" as in possessing a quality. You could also write I show Scottishness, I have a Scot nature, I show a Scot's mannerisms, I have the viewpoints of a Scot. You could identify your nature more explicitly by stating what characteristic makes you seem Scottish: I talk/sound/look/dress/smell/eat/drink/swear/snore/taste/spend like a Scot. Frankly, I would find any such expression more informative and satisfying than I am Scottish or I have Scottishness.

I would find it entirely correct to hear you say "I am a Scot," provided you had Scottish-born parents who bore and birthed you in Scotland.

Inkstersco

But I am Scottish and I have Scottishness have the same meaning(s), therefore the same flaws, yet only of one these is E-Prime. That's my point.

Get rid of the verb "to be", and the niche shall get filled by some other equally slippery substitute.

Yes, be and have don't have the same meanings, but the whole of each sentence amounts to the same (vague, problematic) meaning.

~Iain

Karen

Iain, do you have Scottish lineage or Scottish nationality? The two have very different meanings and you have to have clarity on what you mean when you say I am Scottish?

Bob, the word, be had many meaning, not just equal. When you say, To be or not to be, the word implies exist, or 'be it as it may' means status quo, Let it be, implies the word release.

I believe we get lazy in thought because we don't exert our minds to forced closure. If people would rid themselves of 'to be' verbs, we would become clearer and face less stress when we try to understand one another. With the elimination of conflict and mixed messages I believe speaking in e-prime would make the world a much better place.

Inkstersco

That's just my point -- I am citing "I am Scottish" as an ambiguous statement. The statement doesn't come from me. The truth about me is besides the point.

If one forbids me from using "be", I could say "I have Scottishness", and that would have the same vagueness.

To clarify: I see I have Scottishness as a lazy E-Prime substitute for I am Scottish and neither better than the other.

At first, yes. But then we'd lazily start using "I have Scottishness" which creates the same stress.

Maybe we ought to avoid also sentences that imply the verb "to be", without saying it.

~Iain

Karen

To say, I have Scottishness' becomes non-specific as well as incorrect English. One does not say they have Englishness or Americanishness. Either you have Scottish lineage or Scottish nationality? You can say, I live in England as a national citizen, but I have American lineage.

Inkstersco

But they would say "I have Englishness" if they could not use the verb "to be", and had no specific intention of making themselves clear. What is now a weird sentence would become the norm, if the verb "to be" was abolished.

An obfuscator, when unable to use the verb "to be", can easily fall back on sentences which imply the verb to be, such as "I have Scottishness", which is just a roundabout, be-less version of "I am Scottish".

~Iain