EmptyGraves

This link connects to an article by James French, who programs computers at the University of California, Berkeley, and has written papers on general semantics and logic published in journals such as The Journal of Symbolic Logic. He presents ten thoughtful arguments against using e-prime. I found it useful while I considered whether to practice e-prime. I choose to practice it, regardless, because doing so helps me accept impermanancy, and take responsibility for the content of my statements.

http://learn-gs.org/library/etc/49-2-french.pdf

Square

My counter-arguments:

Ad #10: Yes, but I still can't see the point. The word "to be" may become an alternative for virtually any other word, and its inherent ambigousness doesn't help very much. People skilled in E-Prime use could still use various of different expressions, not having to resort to substituting previously used ones for a mere "to be".

Ad #9: I don't get the point at all! Did I miss something?

Ad #8: Why can't one just answer "He works as a professor"? Does it really sound too long, or something? People use "is" as an answer for virtually everything.

Ad #7: Perfectly acceptable? More like, "perfectly ambigous". Especially the phrases like "it's raining" or "I'm going to the store", which can be perfectly substituted with "rain falls" and "I go to the store".

Ad #6: Yes, but the E-Prime statement given bears a pretty different meaning. The evil of "to be" comes not from referring to identification, but from bearing thousands of different meanings which people often can't distinguish from identification.

Ad #5: And thousands of people not trained in general semantics may end up led astray. The point?

Ad #4: Wrong. The author of the text apparently lacks some understanding on the way languages work and how they develop. I can regard as an impossibility the introduction of new vocabulary for various meanings of "to be", or elimination of that verbs just in certain areas. As most people can't even tell between various ambigous meanings of "to be", I can tell it actually seems easier to learn E-Prime than try to eliminate certain uses of the verb (which, in turn, would make people just return to old, historical uses of "to be" in senseless contexts).

That sadly appears as the way things go: one can sooner created a constructed language with new vocabulary and grammar than try and change the rules of currently existing one - E-Prime just cuts the use of one verb (and several constructions using it), not attempting to introduce brand new grammatical design.

Ad #3: Ever heard of the verb "equals"?

Ad #2: First of all, that helps eliminate ambigous and meaningless terms - a'la "Newspeak". Second of all, you can still refer to a certain person as a "student" without the use of "to be".

Ad #1: See #4.

Bai

For a better, simpler response to #2 "she is a student", just say "she studies" or "she studies at university."

I argue that E-Prime helps people conceptualise life as a continual process rather than a series of objects. Nothing truly remains constant; the state of things fluctuate over time.

Thus, I don't believe in say, "intelligent" or "ignorant" people by ascribing that quality as an eternal, inert state. You either pursue intelligence or ignorance through conscious or subconscious means. In other words, you either go up or down across time; you never remain as one "thing". For example, you play the piano better through practise or you play it worse through lack of it...you cannot say, at any point, "I am a pianist".

Hmm, but doesn't this create problems when describing qualities like "human". Instead of:

I am a human being.

You would say:

I seem/call myself human(?)

I find this confusing!

Karen

Square, Could you find time to become more active on this website, I would enjoy corresponding with you in e-prime. Karen

Bromo33333

I find it awkward, when formulating sentences, in order to create an 'identity,' such as a name, or to ask a question about someone's name or relation.

Perhaps this results from inexperience on my part? The 10 points cited above seem to have some validity, even if it generates some controversy? It does not seem bad if it causes a pause for thought? What thoughts do the members have?

__________________
“Speak properly, and in as few words as you can, but always plainly; for the end, speech conveys not ostentation, but understanding.” - William Penn (trans to e-prime)
==
Bromo33333

Marcio_Osorio

Momentarily I cannot seem to download Mr. French's argument list against E-Prime. Yet I found all the replies in this thread very informative.

I too find formulating sentences of identity somewhat hard. From what I read from the thread, it appears to me that Mr. French, in his convictions and beliefs, all too eagerly downplays or seeks to destroy what importance or validity one may attach to EP. At least, in my mind, he seemed intent on debunking all attempts at validation.

@Bromo33333 - Pauses in speech help a speaker organize his or her thoughts. Even those in EP. Even if we had the gift of gab, we still would need pauses. For breath, at least. So naturally we would need these in EP as well.

I have many thoughts, most of which claim a lot more consistency or validity than an ESL brain can provide. I will continue to practice EP, though, till "I get the hang of it."

Karen

Why would you have a problem introducing yourself as, I call myself......or, my friends call me.........

How many time have you heard people say, my name (is) ---------, but you can call me________?

Why don't you just start with, you can call me..........because my friends do

Marcio you have my vote when you explained your reasoning about pauses. Don't stop with EP even when you do get the hang of the language.

Marcio_Osorio

K, thank you for your vote.

Sounds like a good idea. K, I like your "You can call me________". I will practice it over the phone in reply to "Who's speaking please?" questions. Of course, I will have to do it in my own native language. At the office the phone rings a lot. Some of my fellow workers to whom I have spoken or told my name early in the morning sometimes forget about it and ask again as they call me back in the evening!

I pick up the phone receiver more than 50 times a day. Luckily, people at my department do some of the calisthenics for me.

Karen

I don't know why my posts do not get posted. I replied to this last week.

KateGladstone

Re:

"Instead of:

I am a human being.

You would say:

I seem/call myself human(?)"

Why not ... "I belong to the human race"?

Chinmay

Karen

How would you describe the meaning of man?
What kind of definition can you give me for the meaning of woman?
Would you consider this path my destiny?
How would I describe myself?
How would you describe yourself?